(Los Alamitos, 3/14/2011) Looks like a fleet of Cal Guard’s Blackhawk helicopters will be moving to Los Alamitos from Victorville.
That may be good, or it may be bad, but the lack of publicity about an Enviromental Analysis meeting set for this Wednesday, March 16 7-8 PM at the Base is cause for concern to at least one local citizen.
I first heard of the meeting via an e-mail I received froman alert citizen who caught the required public announcement in Sunday’s Register‘s classified ads:
I would imagine a posting in the back of a newspaper would not get the attention that an article would, but maybe they don’t REALLY want anyone to show up to a meeting so they can just slip this by.
I am wondering why the city hasn’t made some sort of announcement either on line or in a flyer to the homes that back up to the JFTB.I do not think it is fair to surprise the public.
Advertisement:
The Patch’s December post indicated the Army Reserve was “looking at” stationing the 8 helicopter, 66 member unit at the JFTB, pending a noise study.
Most responses cited in the article were positive:
Aside from the noise concerns that some of the residents could have with this, I think it’s a totally appropriate use for the base. I think it is pretty cool. –Los Alamitos City Manager Jeff Stewart
Los Alamitos had until January to reply to a letter seeking city input. The letter indicated that “The company would perform light helicopter maintenance and conduct flight training operations including departure and landing exercises. The helicopters would utilize airspace and follow flight patterns already being used by fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft that train at the Installation.”
What do you think?
Related posts:
The black hawk copters need to stay in Victorville…
Or find another location in which to conduct training exercises. The open low populated Mojave Desert is idea. Why move to a densely populated area?
I believe, there’s a Trojan horse approach to this move.
6 copters and 87 staff, doesn’t seem like much unless you live close to the base — as I do — just across the street.
Here are some reasons why, in my opinion, the Black Hawk copters need to stay out of Los Alamitos.
Keep in mind two points as you read these comments, I am a big fan and supporter of the military and the JFTB at Los Alamitos. Plus, I went to the site http://www.army-nepa.info.com and read the posted materials.
Increasing Noise Pollution
The incessant, “Cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop”
You doubt it, spend some time walking around “carrier row” during the late evening as some copter group now at the base, practice “touch and goes” (Landings and take off’s) well into the night – usually stopping around 10:00 PM.
Have you heard and seen the Coast Guard’s orange copters fly around the base? The edgy dance with the perimeter is “cute” and edgy, as the prop wash blasts dust and dirt from all over everywhere – I usually call the tower when this is happening on Farquhar and hear remarks such, “Sorry sir new pilot.” Or “The pilot is unfamiliar with the special rules concerning flying around the base perimeter.” Or “The pilot missed the briefing on” I wonder what else the pilot missed?
Some times the training involves low flying exercises. The vibration causes neighborhood cats & dogs to run and hide. My house shakes violently – all the family pictures on the wall are crooked — I have to go and straighten them.
Some times the copters just hover for extended periods of time. “Cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop-cloop” This action causes many of us come outside and see what’s going on – as it’s hard to have a conversation to with anyone in the house.
Noise Proofing
Perhaps we ought to initiate “Noise Proofing” the surrounding community. Around LAX, the city of Los Angeles paid for window replacements and insulation. I have already made the improvements and paid for them.
Perhaps we could get the cities of Los Alamitos, Seal Beach, Cypress and Garden Grove and the state and federal government to chip in and provide “Noise Reduction Alternatives” to the residents surround the base?
Look it’s just maybe $5-10,000 per house or apartment and that’s just a few million — what’s a few million these days? It’s a lot and in this case unnecessary if the Black Hawk copters don’t come to Los Alamitos.
Potential Disaster in the Making
Training pilots…
The numbers catch up eventually — there will be an accident. The question is when, where, how bad, how many homes will be destroyed? God forbid how many lives local civilian lives will be lost? What if the training exercise involved loading and carrying live ammunition and the copter goes down?
If you examine the accident and crash records of Miramar Naval air station base in San Diego the numbers speak for them selves. Similar examples exist in other areas of California and nationally.
Military exercises in local neighborhoods at some always result in extensive civilian collateral damage.
The report claims perhaps only 15 flights weekly, I doubt it.
Increased Street Traffic
87 staff turns into 75-80+ vehicles going in and out of the gate at Lexington everyday. Or at least several days a week.
Then there are technicians, repair specialists, suppliers and vendors and the family and friends who visit the staff on the base.
The vehicle count jumps to 125+/- more vehicles going in and out of the gate, some drive north to Katella while others drive Farquhar to Los Alamitos Blvd. This increased vehicle volume causes back up and longer stops at the stop signs. Soon we’ll need traffic lights on Farquhar.
Wonder? Go walk on Lexington between Katella and Farquhar early in the morning; Walk on Farquhar — usually there is a non stop solid long line of cars and trucks trying to get in the base main gate.
Then there’s the mass exodus in the late afternoons. I have seen afternoon traffic back up solid on Farquhar towards Bloomfield.
Foot in the Door Approach
Next we’ll hear, “Let’s just add a few more copters to the unit or how about another unit. Two is usually better than one.” Then two becomes three and like rabbits we soon have 50-60 copters.
Then the LA county sheriff is back trying again to move their entire helicopter operations from LA to the JFTB base.
Since there is helicopter activity and fuel at the base, it all makes since when you are trying to save some money. Right? Wrong.
Saving Money
It seems to me, that someone AKA the tax payers, are going to pay for the move from Victorville to Los Alamitos.
Think for a moment… the physical move, new buildings for administration and support, hangers for repairs. The cost of living and doing business in Los Alamitos is higher than Victorville.
The report claims they can share other facilities that are already in use. How long is the army going to “borrow” space from the another group. Often they can’t share dance floor space at the “Starting Gate.”
So if there such a move to save money in Sacramento — why is any one thinking of moving helicopters and staff from Victorville to Los Alamitos? Perhaps there’s an ulterior motive in mind here.
The rent paid at Victorville seems to be the focus of savings in the report. Did they consider space at George, Edwards, March or Van Nuys air bases? Perhaps the Army ought to get a new real estate broker to work on the deal structure and rates.
Military Target for Terrorists
In the post 911 world we live in today — the increasing tactics of terrorism have changed drastically the landscape and rules of engagement. The “bad guys” today don’t follow the rules of past.
We are very lucky that there have not been any local attacks and I pray regularly that none come. However the stark reality is different.
Moving a unit of armed Black Hawk helicopters to Los Alamitos increase the base and surround neighbor hoods as a viable target for attack by any ambitious insurgent terrorist group looking to wrack havoc and make a statement.
Since the base is the emergency operations center for Southern California and forward gathering position of first responders, this location increases the chances of the base being a target.
If the base was an acted on target, the collateral damage to the surrounding neighbor hoods and communities could be devastating.
So these are some of my initial concerns. Therefore I believe the copters need to stay in Victorville or find another suitable location where continuous training exercises can be conducted easily and safely for the military and civilians.
Mr Porter is right on.
Moving them here is a very bad idea.
They will also be maintaining the helicopters and can do that at any hour of the day or night. This would require the engine and blades to be running. It is very loud and would echo all over town, especially at night. The fumes are not good either.
Also, if this is to save money why leave Victorville? What will this do to the town of Victorville? This can not be good for them if their economy counts of the base there.
Los Alamitos is no place for helicopters. This base should be used for emergency’s only.
Victorville is a perfect area to train helicopter pilots.
I think the city should have a meeting and hear from the residents who are not pilots and who don’t work on the JFTB. Does anyone remember the meeting when the LA County Sheriff wanted to move here? That is the kind of meeting we need to have.
Before that meeting the city of Los Alamitos hand passed out a flyer to every home in Los Al. ( thanks to P&R) What are our leader doing to inform the residents?
After it’s a done deal you know they will be complaining loudly to city hall.
The forefathers of this city allowed the homes to encroach on the base, now it’s to late to do anything about that.
There needs to be much discussion and comment from the residents now. We all know exactly what is going to happen.
The comment period ends April 19. We should also be sending letters to our leaders and Sacramento.
I have lived on the perimeter of the base for 40 years and lately the noise and dust debris has increased. It has affected our healthy lungs with more debris in the air and settling in our home. We paid for the best in noise proof windows and doors but still the noise in a nuisance. I am pro military with a son in the Navy who flew helicopters. Please keep these helicopters out in the desert where they should be. I love our home but the noise needs to be controlled.
Wow-Not In My Backyard!
We enjoy the freedom that the military provides, yet when our precious homes are invaded by loud helicopters and the staff that keeps them in the air – we protest, under some false vision of a potential “terrorist attack”.
How ridiculous is this discussion. I may agree that this is not the best use of the land that makes up the JFTB, if that is true, let’s push to have the base on the next BRAC, and have it shut down. This may be the best thing for our community and will calm all of the annoying neighbors to a military base that was built and established long before many of us lived “around” the exterior of the military facility. I find it hard to believe that those complaining didn’t know the JFTB was there when they moved next door.
Just think, if the JFTB is closed, the City of Los Alamitos has the opportunity to grow by nearly 100%, under the vision of a master planned community.
Either get on board supporting the military, quit being the cowardly “NIMBY” neighbors – or move to shut it down.
You can’t have it both ways!
“Either get on board supporting the military, quit being the cowardly “NIMBY” neighbors – or move to shut it down”
I agree, shut it down. The BASE was here before me and the Indians were here before the BASE. Times change, and there is no reason helicopters need to train in a crowed residential area.
They should be training in the same type of area they will be flying in during a war.
The JFTB would be best as an emergency base. The freedoms we enjoy will not go away if they stay in Victorville. Noise is a problem and it will be a constant battle with the neighbors.
Do you really want to put the pilots in danger trying to fly a pattern that is just to tight?
If the Base was to close, and the community grew by 100% it still wouldn’t be as noisy as 10 more helicopters. The community does support the military, but we are tired of the smoke screen as to why more helicopters NEED to be here. We know it’s a great location, but it is completely encroached upon by homes, schools, shopping, etc. To much noise and danger. Just not a good idea.
The most common sense statement so far:
“The JFTB would be best as an emergency base.”
With the closing of El Toro Los Alamitos is the only Military Air Field along the coast between Miramar and Pt. Mugu with a 10,000+ runway. The field needs to be maintained and kept intact for a real national emergency.
Occassional fixed wing rotary aircraft activity is understandable and easily tolerated. However the incessant noise from helicopters in a constant training mode would be better imposed on the coyotes and rabbits of the high desert.
Cities and the military have allowed civilian encroachment over the years and now the price will be paid…by both.
“NIMBY” -
Now those who have written, are experts in military strategy. Simply because you may believe the Blackhawks are equally staged in Victorville or Los Alamitos doesn’t make it so.
There very well may be a national security concern to have the staging area for this operation in a major metropolitan area, such as the JFTB.
Like I wrote before, either embrace the JFTB and it’s mission or make the bold statement to shut it down! If you all think you know the intelligence side of staging and military operations, you’re naive at best and ignorant at worst.
I say let’s get on the BRAC bandwagon if your precious noise monitors can’t keep in mind that the JFTB is an ARMY Airfield – with a National Security mission.
Fish I agree with you, and disagree with you.
You say the people must either get behind it or BRAC it.
I agree with your two choices (and even have a personal leaning), but disagree with WHO has to “get behind the base”.
If the government wants to keep a base here, then they should take 10% of what has been spent on Pendelton’s base upgrades over the last 20 years down the road to the south and spend it here in a base upgrade.
Go look at any Pendelton barracks room built in the last 10 years and compare it to the WWII barracks that we force our troops to use at the JFTB.
I don’t expect the military to build the condo’s on the beach that they have at Pendelton, but I do expect them to invest money into upgrading the base to current conditions, or they can just shut it down.
One or the other. Either it’s important and they treat it that way (just how long was the runway in need of repair?) or they say it is NOT important and therefor it’s a WWII hangover and can be closed. You can’t have it both ways. You can NOT not invest and then say it’s important to the mission.
If the military says that this base is important enough to have more missions, then I say prove it. Invest 10% of what has been invested in Pendelton over the last 20 years in next years budget for the base so it can be upgraded, OR close it down and give it to the City for redevelopment.
I too believe that the Black Hawks should not be based in in a densly populated area such as LOS ALAMITOS mainly because of the noise polution. If they are brought here our quality of life will definitly be adversly affected. Keep them in Victorville and we will continue to have a peaceful environment here in LOS ALAMITOS
This is absolutely ridiculous. We have enough noise now. The Coast Guard is the worst. They fly low and directly over homes. When you call the noise complaint line you generally get a recording. I met with a Captain Fish a year ago before they were deployed and he told me to just call the Duty Officer and have the fights use the nothern approach. It worked for about 2 months. Now you talk to a recording with no respnse or return call as they promise. The whole Base should be relocated or maybe purchase all the homes under the flight path.
In addition to the military, is everyone forgetting all the ploice and fire helicopter noise during the day. The base is out of control and needs to move.
Mr. Colafati,
How long have you lived here? When you bought or began paying rent did you do any research to note a nearby military base? The navy base has been here since 1942, 4 years after I got here. I’m guessing that the base was here before you were.
I dislike the offensive “French Made” Coast Guard Helecopter. It is a noisy nuisance flying around up to three times a day. The police helecopters are much less of a problem than you state. There are not many cities who still own them. Those that do are nearly grounded and don’t have the gasoline money to operate. This is a bungled economy especially for a city who still owns a police helecopter. I’m not sure where you come from about the fire helecopters. There are only a couple in our area and they are placed in Fullerton. I have not viewed them here. The other helecopters are military. They are there conducting their missions the way the base was intended. The sound you hear from them is the sound of our freedom.
How can you tell if a military vehicle is American or French: The American made has 6 forward gears and 1 reverse. The French made has 1 forward gear and 6 reverse gears.
Dear Retired in Los Al,
In 1942 there were not all the homes around the base. The cities allowed homes to be build.
The Centex homes by Target were build just a few years ago. If the cities were in support of this base, as they say they are, they would have never allowed all the residential development around the base.
In 1942 the planes came and went. In and out, and the noise was over. There were no helicopters flying over your house for hours at a time. Times have changed, even the military has had to adapt Now there are laws to govern this. The base is walking a very fine line.
Over the years there are commanders who have had control over their troops/pilots. Sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s bad.
Bottom line is this, if the pilots continue to have the attitude that the “good neighbor policy” doesn’t mean anything to them, and continue to fly over homes, the neighbors will pull together to shut this base down.
Don’t think it won’t happen because it has.
The sounds of freedom is great, it belongs in the desert. It belongs in an area where the pilots can do any kind of training they need to do safely. Believe me I understand how great this location is. Who wouldn’t want to live/train fairly close to the beach, freeways close by, nice weather. It’s a great place to live and that is what the residents are trying to do. They are trying to live with some quality of life.
There is NOTHING being done here that can’t be do somewhere else. No resident is saying stop the training…….just get along or train somewhere else
And let’s be clear here, the JFTB is the red headed step child that is kept in the closet under the stairs (not a Harry Potter reference, but that does provide a visual).
Look at the funding that Pendelton gets. Look at the funding the JFTB gets. If the JFTB got 10% of Pendelton’s funding it would be a premier showplace and a great place for our troops. As it is our troops live in 1940′s conditions. Compare that to the conditions in Pendelton.
I hear people saying that it’s the “sound of freedom” and I keep on feeling that if the Pentegon wants US to suuport the base and the troops, it could start the process by supporting the JFTB and the troops by investing in upgrading the JFTB conditions and making that 10% of Pendelton investment.
Yes, we all knew that we were moving in next to an active military base. Yes, we all knew that the JFTB handled air traffic in both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. Yes, we should be expecting noise.
But at the same time, the JFTB did say it would fly within the confines of a “good neighbor policy” and they should maintain that and not allow pilots who violate the policy to fly over the airspace.
As of today I am for either one of two options for the JFTB. Option one, the prferred option, is for the Pentegon to fund the JFTB,provide backdated funding of 10% of Pendelton’s for the last 15 years and keep it tied to 10% of Pendelton’s moving forward. This would allow for the JFTB to make major upgrades that would benefit the troops and their readiness. The other option is to BRAC the JFTB and let the City of Los Alamitos develop the property as best it can for the benefit of the City and it’s residents and businesses.
Either do one or the other, but do not let it continue to be the mess that it remains today.
Don’t let my name fool you completely. There things about the base I find annoying too.
When the wind is right, and there is a sizeable aircraft running it’s APU (auxiliary power unit) on the flight line, I can honestly say I don’t like the fumes of burnt JP4 jet fuel making it’s way down my street. It stinks.
I don’t like the Coast Guard dauphin helicopters for any other reason than the fact that they are French. Otherwise I actually like the way they sound and appreciate the performance they provide.
If aircraft are hovering or flying so close to homes as to blow dirt and debris onto residential property, you have my sympathy. I don’t like that either.
I don’t like the green and gold helicopters from the LA County Sheriff’s Department at all. Yes, there are lots of them. Just because they didn’t get their hangar here, doesn’t mean they aren’t using the pattern for their training. I’m a big believer that noise and air pollution generated by LA County assests should be kept exactly there, in LA County. At minimum, Torrance, Compton and Pomona aifields are all alternatives.
I don’t appreciate the noise after 10pm. Absent emergency operations, that seems like a reasonable hour to shut things down so the average working guy who still has a job to get up for in the morning can get some sleep.
Having said all that, I remain an avid supporter of the base. I’d like to ask readers to consider the following if for no other reason than it seems to have gone unmentioned to this point;
The blackhawks are not armed. At least not with anything more than small caliber security weapons carried by the personnel. There are laws and regulations covering that issue much the same way navy ships are required to bunker their munitions when docked in Seal Beach.
Not many years ago, there was an aging fleet of UH-1H helicopters stationed in Los Al. Being what it is, the unit is not the type of priority to the Army/Guard to simply replace them overnight. I’m suggesting that as they have been moth balled or set to rest in one of the desert graveyards, the Blackhawks are finally here to replace them. I can testify by experience, the hawks are much more quiet in many ways.
Riots and wild fires. SoCal has been known to have a few every now and then. Helicopters at the base have been instrumental in providing speedy delivery of supplies, personnel, and water drops (yes, I’ve actually done it myself!) during these emergencies.
Many of you have been in Los Al have been here a very long time, much longer than me. Even so, most all of us were not here before the base. Tustin is gone, the military mission is dynamic, ever changing and adapting to new challenges. I was fully aware of the base when I bought my home and sometimes fear what might someday replace it more than daily annoyances it brings. So I accept it for what it is, I’m okay with that.
Hence the saying, “Carefull what you wish for, you might just get it.”
That’s my two cents.
YIMBY said, “When the wind is right, and there is a sizeable aircraft running it’s APU (auxiliary power unit) on the flight line, I can honestly say I don’t like the fumes of burnt JP4 jet fuel making it’s way down my street. It stinks”.
Well, if your OK with that you should be very pleased if the balance of the Black hawks come to house at JFTB. Fuel fumes is one reason nobody wanted the LA county helicopters housed here. It is unhealthy for children and adults, there is simply no good argument for having any helicopters at JFTB. Forget about the noise, it is just not safe. Helicopters are dangerous and unhealthy.